Back to top
ahimsajackJoined: 25 Apr 2007Posts: 506Location: New York state
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject:
Teo, you really get around. I do not fully understand your differentiation between a disease and a syndrome. In my opinion the way PD is currently viewed, as the loss of dopamine, it is in fact a "symptom". Dopamine depletion from the substantia nigra is only the last and symptomatic step in a sadly unkown patheay or process. Fortunately, the younger researchers, especially at MJFF, are breaking with this paradigm and looking for the root problem. Again in my opinion the propensity for PD is in the genes of certain people. On the occasion of an event or exposure that triggers this gene's activity a bio-chemical process is started whose end result is dopamine loss. Furthering my opinion, treating PWP's with the dopaminergic drugs is at best a band aid to cover the symptom, and could actually make the condition worse in the long run. I guess this meand we have to educate the educators. Jack_________________We are what we think, with our thoughts we make our world.
Back to top
John ShJoined: 05 Mar 2007Posts: 126Location: Arroyo Grande, California
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: Jack
I need you on this forum, thank you.....Please try to stand the bombardment, I am saying this in a vein of humor. For me, your input is great. John S
Back to top
CBishopJoined: 24 Jan 2008Posts: 1
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject:
Regarding treatment with l-dopa: I don't think it causes the disease to be worse in the long run. Rather, I think it enables some symptoms that would otherwise not be experienced (because the person would otherwise already be dead). Before l-dopa, PWP lived a much shorted lifespan than those today who undergo treatment with l-dopa and other dopaminergic drugs. Some of the distressing symptoms we see today in advanced PD were never seen in the days before l-dopa. But could it be that rather than causing the symptoms, l-dopa enables them to be manifested because it prolongs life by fostering muscle tone and strength and decreasing rigidity. Just wondering . . . Sunny
Back to top
Rogerstar1Joined: 14 Mar 2007Posts: 210
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:22 am Post subject:
Temoe_ You've just lost me again, Find a friend more poficient im English who can organize your thotghts and expand them a little in clearer language we might all beneft from, thanks RogerstarLast edited by Rogerstar1 on Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
ahimsajackJoined: 25 Apr 2007Posts: 506Location: New York state
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:49 am Post subject:
CBishop wrote:
Regarding treatment with l-dopa: I don't think it causes the disease to be worse in the long run. Rather, I think it enables some symptoms that would otherwise not be experienced (because the person would otherwise already be dead). Before l-dopa, PWP lived a much shorted lifespan than those today who undergo treatment with l-dopa and other dopaminergic drugs. Some of the distressing symptoms we see today in advanced PD were never seen in the days before l-dopa. But could it be that rather than causing the symptoms, l-dopa enables them to be manifested because it prolongs life by fostering muscle tone and strength and decreasing rigidity. Just wondering . . . SunnyThe "fact" that we live longer is a partial myth. This is a statistic that uses time of birth as a base reference. A lot fewer people are dying in child birth and childhood diseases. This "aritificially" raises the expected age of death. Yes it is true we are dying later but only by about one or two years. Not significant enough to impact the vast increase in PD symptoms. IMHO, and it is an educated guess, the meds are the problem. Jack_________________We are what we think, with our thoughts we make our world.
Back to top
Joe or BobJoined: 12 Aug 2007Posts: 123
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:57 am Post subject:
Rogerstar1 wrote:
Temoe_ You've just lost me again, Find a friend more poficient im English wh0 can ortganize tour thoutghts in cleareer languish we might all beneft from, thanks RogerstarRogerstar, you've lost me there. Please find a friend who knows propa spelin and grama like what I do.
Back to top
Joe or BobJoined: 12 Aug 2007Posts: 123
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject:
Dopamine formation is primary biochemistry. It leads to a long series of biochemical reactions that eventually leads to a reduction in the excessive muscle contraction that causes parkinson's Disease. It therefore can not be a biochemical symptom of Parkinson's Disease as ar cell damage or the effect on neuromelanin formation, because nothing precedes or affects dopamine formation apart from the need for it to be produced. L-dopa in drug form can worsen Parkinson's Disease because it is known to inhibit soembody's ability to produce their own dopamine. That is why the dosages tend to have to be increased over the years.
Back to top
ahimsajackJoined: 25 Apr 2007Posts: 506Location: New York state
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject:
Joe or Bob wrote:
Dopamine formation is primary biochemistry. It leads to a long series of biochemical reactions that eventually leads to a reduction in the excessive muscle contraction that causes parkinson's Disease. It therefore can not be a biochemical symptom of Parkinson's Disease as ar cell damage or the effect on neuromelanin formation, because nothing precedes or affects dopamine formation apart from the need for it to be produced. L-dopa in drug form can worsen Parkinson's Disease because it is known to inhibit soembody's ability to produce their own dopamine. That is why the dosages tend to have to be increased over the years.It is true that dopamine formation is a bio-chemical process(I prefer "reaction"). However, the formation of dopamine is not the starting point of this process, there are bio-chemical precursors, which in turn are triggered by autonomic functions and can eventually be tracked back to a gene. Because dopamine formation or the lack thereof is at the end of the line for these bio-chemical processes it is a result not a cause and can therefore be called a symptom. It is my contention that far too much attention is focused on this end result and not enough on the root cause, whatever that may be. My guess/feeling/hypothosis that the meds cause worse symptoms in the long run is based on anectdotal evidence. I readily admit this is unscientific but it is what I believe. Jack_________________We are what we think, with our thoughts we make our world.Last edited by ahimsajack on Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
ahimsajackJoined: 25 Apr 2007Posts: 506Location: New York state
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject:
Cbishop(Sunny), correct me if I am wrong, but don't I remember you under a different nom de plume here a while back. If so, welcome back. Jack_________________We are what we think, with our thoughts we make our world.
Back to top
Joe or BobJoined: 12 Aug 2007Posts: 123
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject:
I spent years researching and writing a complete biochemistry of Parkinson's Disease. There simply are no biochemical precursors of dopamine formation. The autonomic system can become involved because it will cause the formation of adrenaline. Adrenaline in turn stimulates acetylcholine formation. Acetycholine increases muscle contraction. This triggers the formation of dopamine in order to reduce the excessive muscle contraction. Parkinson's Disease occurs because there is an ability to produce sufficient dopamine to counteract this excessive muscle contraction. Adrenaline > Acetylcholine > increased muscle contraction > Dopamine > reduced muscle contraction That is why Parkinson's Disease is a dopamine deficient disorder.
Back to top
ahimsajackJoined: 25 Apr 2007Posts: 506Location: New York state
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject:
Joe or Bob wrote:
I spent years researching and writing a complete biochemistry of Parkinson's Disease. There simply are no biochemical precursors of dopamine formation. The autonomic system can become involved because it will cause the formation of adrenaline. Adrenaline in turn stimulates acetylcholine formation. Acetycholine increases muscle contraction. This triggers the formation of dopamine in order to reduce the excessive muscle contraction. Parkinson's Disease occurs because there is an ability to produce sufficient dopamine to counteract this excessive muscle contraction. Adrenaline > Acetylcholine > increased muscle contraction > Dopamine > reduced muscle contraction That is why Parkinson's Disease is a dopamine deficient disorder.You essentially repeated what I said. The autonomic system triggers the formation of adrenaline, to acetylcholine, to dopamine, or lack of dopamine. We agree that the formation of dopamine is the caboose on this train. The degree to which dopamine does or does not form is an effect not a cause, and may therefore be called a symptom. OK, we are stuck debating semantics. Two old scientists protecting their turf. Be that as it may, it is still true that the majority of researchers focus on dopamine and not whatever is the root cause further towards the engine of this train. I am sticking with the proposed scenario that a percentage of people are born with a defective gene that presupposes them for PD. A traumatic event, or chemical exposure activates this genes functionality, which impacts the autonomic system which puts a kink in the bio-chemical pathway, which results in underproduction of dopamine, which causes the classical symptoms of PD. My agenda is to get more focus back towards the beginning of this chain, because adding dopaminergic meds is very problematic to the patient causing at least as much dysfunction as it covers(not cures). I highly respect your expertise, and ask only that you respect my hypothesis. You do not have to agree, but I would like to hear that it is at least plausible. Let us not bicker over terminology but team together to help root out this beast we call PD. Jack_________________We are what we think, with our thoughts we make our world.
Back to top
ahimsajackJoined: 25 Apr 2007Posts: 506Location: New York state
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject:
If you can excuse me for adding a thought. According to your pathway acetylcholine causes increased muscle tension, which in turn calls for dopamine. That sounds correct as I remember my bio-chemistry. Why then are we not more focused on anticholinergics. As an example Benedryl is the only PD med I take and it ameliorates my tremors far better than sinimet did when I tried it. It is a pleasure dialoguing with you, because you understand the chemistry, as do I. Jack_________________We are what we think, with our thoughts we make our world.
Back to top
Joe or BobJoined: 12 Aug 2007Posts: 123
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject:
ahimsajack wrote:
If you can excuse me for adding a thought. According to your pathway acetylcholine causes increased muscle tension, which in turn calls for dopamine. That sounds correct as I remember my bio-chemistry. Why then are we not more focused on anticholinergics. Anti-choliergics knock out the function of acetylcholine. Acetylcholine has beneficial effects all over the body. Anti-cholinergics consequently have very widespread negative effects.
Back to top
Joe or BobJoined: 12 Aug 2007Posts: 123
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject:
ahimsajack wrote:
You essentially repeated what I said. The autonomic system triggers the formation of adrenaline, to acetylcholine, to dopamine, or lack of dopamine. We agree that the formation of dopamine is the caboose on this train. The degree to which dopamine does or does not form is an effect not a cause, and may therefore be called a symptom. Insufficient formation of dopamine is not an effect. In enzyme studies it has shown that the formation of dopamine is unable to exceed about 25% in mild Parkinson's Disease, and about 10% in severe Parkinson's Disease. Adrenaline does not affect or cause that insufficiency. In Parkinson's Disease there is insufficient dopamine anyway. Insufficient formation of dopamine is not genetic. There are no known genetic disorders of dopamine formation. Insufficient formation of dopamine is a biochemical problem. What is needed to make dopamine (the precursor, cofactors and coenzymes) are simply not there in sufficient quantities. This was proven conclusively decades ago in Udenfriends Nobel Prize winning study of dopamine formation. There are toxic causes of Parkinson's Disease that can interfere with dopamine formation, but they are uncommon. Parkinson's Disease drugs can become counterproductive because they are artificial substances that do not facilitate the normal biochemical means of forming dopamine
Back to top
ahimsajackJoined: 25 Apr 2007Posts: 506Location: New York state
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject:
Hey Viartis, you make good sense, and a strong case. The only downside is that it has been shown recently that there is in fact a defective gene that predisposes people to PD. At any rate it does not really matter if you or I know the specifics of what is going on. The reality is that in PD people do not manufacture enough dopamine. There must be a cause for this deficiency. It is not spontaneous. My main point is still valid that this dopamine deficiency is an effect of an unknown cause. And I still maintain that it would be beneficial to identify and eradicate the cause rather than put bandaids on the effect. You make all the sense in the world and are absolutely correct in your details, but you are stuck in an old paradigm. Let us think outside the box. Lord knows we are spinning wheels with the status quo. At the very least I am trying to be proactive. Grant me that much will ya. Jack_________________We are what we think, with our thoughts we make our world.
Back to top
walkingbyfaithJoined: 06 Mar 2007Posts: 17
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject:
So, Joe or Bob, if you had PD, what would you do to "treat" it? Thanks for your input - I found the Viartis site very informative and helpful._________________Walking By Faith
Back to top
ahimsajackJoined: 25 Apr 2007Posts: 506Location: New York state
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject:
Viartis do you remember it was me that suggested you use the forum name of Joe or Bob instead of viartis. Of course I meant one or the other. I had a huge laughing fit when you came back as "Joe-or-Bob, that is so funny, I still chuckle over it. I would like to suggest something else that might help us. I know you say that the bold print looks better, but in posting etiquette that is a form of anger or shouting. I am sure this influences people's reactions at least subconsciously. I mention this as a friend. Jack_________________We are what we think, with our thoughts we make our world.
Back to top
Joe or BobJoined: 12 Aug 2007Posts: 123
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject:
ahimsajack wrote:
Hey Viartis, you make good sense, and a strong case. The only downside is that it has been shown recently that there is in fact a defective gene that predisposes people to PD. At any rate it does not really matter if you or I know the specifics of what is going on. The reality is that in PD people do not manufacture enough dopamine. There must be a cause for this deficiency. It is not spontaneous. My main point is still valid that this dopamine deficiency is an effect of an unknown cause. And I still maintain that it would be beneficial to identify and eradicate the cause rather than put bandaids on the effect.There are a number of genetic "causes" of Parkinson's Disease. However, they are known to have no direct effect on dopamine formation. They also do not cause Parkinson's Disease. They merely make it more likely. There are consequently people with these genetic "causes" of Parkinson's Disease that don't ever develop Parkinson's Disease. The means by which dopamine is produced is already known. The reasons why somebody will not produce sufficient dopamine is already known too. Somebody will not produce sufficient dopamine if they do not have sufficient quantities of the precursors, cofactors and coenzymes needed for dopamine formation. These substances are all nutrients, such as L-tyrosine, ferrous iron, pyridoxine. The problem with L-dopa and dopamine agonists is that they do nothing to facilitate dopamine formation by the normal means by which it is produced. In fact they eventually hinder its formation. L-dopa reduces the bodys natural formation of dopamine. Dopamine agonists eventually make the dopamine receptors even less sensitive.
Back to top
ahimsajackJoined: 25 Apr 2007Posts: 506Location: New York state
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject:
You and I are beating around the mulberry bush. I agree with all that you said, and it proves my point. Enough, I rest my case. Oh, and by the way, it appears that you have superior knowledge of bio-chemistry. I bow to you three times. All I am is a retired physical chemist with a deteriorating mind. I do ask you, however, to take the extra step beyond specific knowledge and try to ferret out what this all means. I doubt very much that we will advance until we are able to visualize the whole picture. Right now we do not see the forest only the trees. Feel free to respond and then let us give this thread a rest. Jack_________________We are what we think, with our thoughts we make our world.
Back to top
Joe or BobJoined: 12 Aug 2007Posts: 123
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject:
ahimsajack wrote:
I do ask you, however, to take the extra step beyond specific knowledge and try to ferret out what this all means. Take the substances needes to form dopamine ! - what the body uses, not what the pharmaceutical companies produce in a vain attempt to artificially do the same job.
Back to top
ahimsajackJoined: 25 Apr 2007Posts: 506Location: New York state
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject:
Brilliant!!! It should have been obvious, thank you. Jack_________________We are what we think, with our thoughts we make our world.
Back to top
walkingbyfaith wrote:
So, Joe or Bob, if you had PD, what would you do to "treat" it? Thanks for your input - I found the Viartis site very informative and helpful.Walkingbyfaith, sorry I didn't reply earlier. I somehow missed a few posts on this Thread that I've only just read for the first time. If I woke up tomorrow morning with Parkinson's Disease, first of all I would swear and moan a lot ! The next thing I would do is to check thoroughly to see that it was actually Parkinson's Disease, because 25% of people that are diagnosed do not actually have it. Misdiagnosis is rampant. I would read through all the descriptions of the Parkinsonisms : http://viartis.net/parkinsons.disease/parkinsonism.htm I would then check the known toxic causes of Parkinson's Disease to see if there was a realistic chance that one of these was the cause : http://viartis.net/parkinsons.disease/toxic.causes.htm I would also consider whether or not the symptoms began after a severe head injury, and whether I was taking anti-psychotics, as they can cause the same symptoms. If none of these applied to me, and I therefore had idiopathic Parkinson's Disease, my response would depend on the severity of the symptoms. If I had mild Parkinson's Disease I would start taking a supplement that provided all of those substances needed to form dopamine, because in the long term that would enable me to produce sufficient dopamine : http://www.dopavite.com/dopavita.htm If I had typical or severe Parkinson's Disease, I would not be able to put up with the symptoms whilst my dopamine levels gradually increased, so I would also start taking a drug that could take care of the symptoms in the short term, whilst my dopamine levels very gradually increased. I wouldn't touch dopamine agonists or any of the other seconday drugs. I would primarily make use of Sinemet CR, as little as I could get away with, and take occasional regular Sinemet if there was a lapse in the effect of the Sinemet CR. When the dopamine supplement eventually got my dopamine levels up to their optimal levels, which could take up to a year, two in severe Parkinson's, I would very very gradually reduce my Parkinson's drug intake.
Back to top
No comments:
Post a Comment